Now let me say that I don't fault the DM that ran the game. He is
a fun person to game with, engaging and intelligent, and I have
played with him a number of times. I also don't fault the players, as
they were really just playing 4e as designed, with
cherry-picked magic items and optimized characters that are honestly encouraged by the rules as written. I can't really blame someone
for playing the game the way it was designed to be played.
The adventure was typical LFR fare: a bit of
roleplay at the beginning, then a three encounter combat slog, like
something from the "Dungeon Delve" book. The first encounter was
basically a joke; the monsters stood no chance against us. Almost
immediately, the flow of combat degenerated into a string of soulless reactions
and interrupts, moving at a snail's pace. An hour in and we were just
going through the motions, as any monster with even a modicum of
intelligence would have fled or surrendered by now. I was groaning to
myself, hurrying through my turns, disengaged, checking to see what the
wife was watching on TV.
The second encounter was another big set-piece deal,
with some creatures that would basically rise again after you killed
them. After the first round of combat (another 40 minute-plus slog of
reactions and interrupts and synergistic charop approved item powers) we realized this. The party began to make its way to a door on the other
side of the room to escape. This took another hour or so. As my
character stood there in the center of the room, soaking up damage, I had
a breakthrough. I was in trouble, no doubt, but I could have escaped
by using a combo of my second wind, a heal spell, and another round of
*shudder* combat. Yet I knew this would take at least another 30
minutes, likely much longer. We were already hours into this grueling thing. I couldn't take it anymore. I told them to just go ahead and run and let
my PC die. I gave a half-hearted attempt at roleplaying it. "I'll hold
them off! Get out of here!" I thanked the DM and wished everyone well and
dropped out. You know a game is bad when you really WANT to die...when
character death is a blessing, like cool water to a dry mouth.
I had to reflect a little bit after the game. I mean, I run a
site that is mostly dedicated to 4e. I own every book. I have defended it hundreds and hundreds of times. Hell, I put out a 4e zine! Was it possible
that I had been kidding myself all of this time? After all, I have
houseruled every part of the game, from items, to combat and monsters,
to traps, to diseases, to skill challenges, to rituals, and on and on. Is it possible that I actually hate 4e?
The answer is yes. I loathe it. I despise it. But,
that isn't the only question. The other question is, "Is
4e worth saving?" And I think it is. Underneath the garbage, 4e has a lot of
wonderful potential. Lots of creative and fun character options. A
simple skill system that can get out of the way if you let it. Easily
hackable design. Clear, understandable rules. There is good in the game,
enough good that, perhaps against all logic and reason, I press on trying
to perfect it.
Now, I want to say that if you like things
about the game that I don't, that is fine and dandy. I am not trying to
convince anyone that my way is best. I just wanted to share what I had
gone through recently as a way of getting it off of my chest. I don't
want this post to end on a negative note; rather, I encourage everyone out there to
make the games you play your own. Be honest with yourself about what
you like and dislike, and adjust accordingly. I realize now that playing
in casual, traditional 4e games is really not something I enjoy. On the
other hand, I love tinkering with the game and running it as something
wholly different from what was apparently originally intended.
So,
enlightenment came through suffering. Isn't that like a Zen koan or something?
I definitely agree and I've been a huge 4e proponent as well. There is a lot of good in 4e if you are willing to dig and hack it up to what you want to be. There is also some crap to sift through as well.
ReplyDeleteSadly, I don't think the way to implement these changes/fixes are very clear unless you have some good experience with 4e both as a player and a DM. Having experience with the history of D&D as a whole is incredibly helpful, too.
I know you are an Epic tier guy, but that's where the bulk of my problems with 4e lie. Same with Paragon, but to a lesser extent. The slog is forefront. The magic items are forefront. The "broken" but by the rules combos are there and prevalent. I've not played a 4e game in awhile, which is kind of sad, but if I were, I told myself that it'd be Heroic only with a lot of changes.
Anyways, sorry for rambling. I definitely agree with you. Tweaks made that game awesome. As written it can be fun, but oh god do those published modules and adventures suck the soul out of you.
Good read. I played 4e for about two years after its release and then had to take a break. When the group got back into it we realized we needed to house rule the ever loving stuffing out of it. If people ask me now if I want to play any iteration of D&D I politely say no. D&D Next is kinda wonky and if someone wants to play 3rd I'll offer Pathfinder. Never played anything older than 3rd and no one I know plays it.
ReplyDeleteI applaud your efforts to rekindle the love of the edition. Good luck mate.
Really well written and honest assessment f how you feel about a system as written. It help sometimes to step back and look at the games we all enjoy and look at what they are before we get to them and make them ours.
ReplyDeleteI hate 4e about as much as I hate every edition of D&D. The big plus with 4e is that everything is game-able without requiring any house rules. Some things will work BETTER with house rules, but the game can actually be played out of the box.
ReplyDeleteI have yet to see another edition of D&D actually BEGIN PLAY without the use of house rules. I mean, jeez... trying to award exp for encounters in any kind of consistent or believable manner in other editions is an exercise in frustration.
--Dither
Basic D&D edited by Tom Moldvay.
DeleteI like 4e a lot but I house rule it a lot myself.
ReplyDeleteI use MM3 math for all monsters, I use advanced damage charts to make them hit harder, and even after the mm3 math I cut 1/4th of their hp off the top so a 40 HP monster goes down to 30 hp, as well as having monsters run when they are at a disadvantage. It's fun that way for me and my players when we do play 4e.
4E is a slog, just like mid-to-high level 3-3.5 is. That's the main thing that drove me away from the system so quickly. That and I never felt inspired to do anything with it. Even simply running pre-made adventures bored me. Playing a character in a 4E game can be fun with the host of options at a player's fingertips, but I had no desire to ever run the system beyond my initial forays behind the screen with 4E.
ReplyDeleteWhat would be interesting is a game with the 4E style characters, but 1 or 2E style monsters and magic item ideals. That could be interesting...
I'm developing something like this. I really like the interrupt/reaction system of 4e, and I think it would handle a lot better in "smaller doses." I'm trying out group initiative with my players, so stuff like "end of next turn" is a little easier to keep track of -- not to mention immediate actions.
Delete--Dither
What level was that? My campaign is currently at level 7, and I can run a complete combat of several rounds in 1 hour. And that is without using house rules, just by preparing maps, counters, etc. in advance. At what level of 4E does a single round of combat take 1 hour?
ReplyDeleteMid-to-late Paragon tier, between levels 15-20. Players have 2 at-wills, 4 encounter powers, 4-5 dailies, 1-3 class powers, a racial power, 5-6 utility powers, ... and potentially more if you're playing with themes.
DeleteWith players flipping back and forth through 15+ powers to figure out what they're going to do on their turn (not to mention the standard array of powers everyone has access to like second wind, charge attacks, grabs, bull rush, and so on), and their action points, their interrupts and reactions...
...Oh, and their magic item powers. By mid-Paragon each PC likely has a minimum of 3-4 magic items with powers to choose from...
Yeah. Combat slows down a LOT while players decide which powers to use and do lots of math. Don't even get me started on tallying up damage and healing. SO MUCH MATH.
--Dither
You know what would really help that? A competent electronic character sheet. WotC has demonstrated they don't have the tech nouse to develop one, and it's next to impossible for anyone else to do it, because they don't have rights to the various game elements.
DeleteBut seriously, it's 2014 - we shouldn't need to have to run so much maths at the table in this smart-phone era.
I do think that the number of options a player has to face every round in 4E is a bit excessive - but I find that if you have a basic tactical guide for your character (Default strategy is Power X round one, Power Y round 2, Power Z round 3, with Powers A, B and C for these specific situations), you can really limit the amount of decision-making. Also, I tend to eschew item powers in favour of properties, which might help.
I wish someone could put out a slimmed down version of 4E. Something like the Essentials book but cut out the pages of unnecessary fluff and make it easy to read for newbies.
ReplyDeleteI'm working on something like this. It took a LONG time for Essentials to grow on me, what with assigned powers and the reduced number of options per-level. But I came to realize (perhaps as you did?) that tons of crappy options are no better than a couple of predetermined features and powers.
Delete--Dither
I’m really torn on where I stand with 4e. On a micro-scale, I find it extremely thrilling and rewarding, but on a macro-scale, it’s a tedious slog that simply can’t sustain the pace of play I desire.
ReplyDeleteA well-balanced, well-designed 4e encounter is a thing of beauty (assuming fixes to damage output and HP have been addressed by the DM). The tactical challenge it presents, and the reward for smart coordinated play is amongst the best of any RPG I’ve had the privilege to play. However, because it is such a robust combat system, adventure-design as a whole becomes problematic. It’s difficult to sustain a sense of urgency and progress in an adventure or session, when every time a fight breaks out, the pace slows down to accommodate the chess-game that is 4e combat.
Over the past year I’ve been playing in a mega-dungeon campaign (Rappan Athuk) using the Dark Dungeons rules (a retro-clone of the D&D rules cyclopedia). It’s the first time I’ve played any edition prior to 2nd and I’ve been blown away at how fun it’s been. The progress in exploration we accomplish in a given session has been incredible. Combat is simple, fast, and dangerous.
Will such a simple combat system sustain my interest in the long term? I don’t know.
I love 4e combat, but hate 4e adventures and campaigns.
I look forward to D&D Next as I hope to see it as an ideal compromise in complexity; time will tell.
Perhaps you simply don't enjoy playing?
ReplyDeleteI always DM and have only played twice in the past 27 or so years out of the 32 years that RPGs have been a hobby. I don't enjoy playing, and never have.
@Eodrid: For me, the maths and complexity of 4E monsters is just right... and I would love to see that basic system adjusted for running PCs. That, to me, would be a nearly perfect introductory set of 4E rules.
I've been thinking about this off and on all week, and I realized that I agree on the point you make -- even to the "wanting to die" point. 4e can reach a point -- especially when players are bickering over which action to take next, where I will sometimes step away from the table. This has basically never happened to me with another system.
ReplyDelete4e really, REALLY needs to be trimmed down.
--Dither
Nope, not worth saving in my book. Go back to original D&D, AD&D, or a retro-clone and house-rule from there.
ReplyDeleteI love 4 th edition, but as others have said it is not perfect. I would like to hear what sorts of house rules people have used to make the game work better.
ReplyDeleteReducing monster hp - either half hp or 5+5/level instead of 8+8/level - was the main thing. Conversely minions get a Damage Threshold but can take damage on a Miss, so a fireball can clear out umpteen minions without rolling each one.
DeleteMostly it's about table management, eg players who don't know what their action is on their turn are Delaying. Avoid combat-slog adventures, better to make combat rare & significant. A fantasy novel or traditional fantasy movie, not a post-'80s action movie.
Battles in my game (6 players, 16th level) can easily take 2 hours, but everyone is very invested in their PCs and it generally works ok. I use plenty of 'outs' where combat can end early, and plenty of chances to avoid combat, esp in published adventures.
Check out 13th age. It has a lot of great features. Combat is fast and effective, the skill system is the simplest and the best d20 fantasy skill system I have ever used. We have had huge battles with 20 or so enemies (mostly mooks), interactive environments and triggering events that were finished in a half hour (only 3 players but still much better than 4e was ever able to do, and nearly no one has to refer to the books to find obscure rules).
ReplyDelete