I haven't run a lot of 4e lately to be honest, I have been going back to the well of 1e and 2e AD&D. That said, I have still been filling holes in my 4e collection via Amazon and Ebay. Books that I completely ignored before, I find myself wanting now for completion's sake. The chromatic and metallic dragon books are among these.
Its another conversation entirely as to why I shunned these books before, but a lot of it is because they are filled with weak solo monsters that every DM worth their salt already houseruled prior to their improvement in post-MM3 publications. Still, I think they have worth. Some of the delves, items, rituals, and the like are interesting, and much of Richard Baker and Bob Schwalb's lore succeeds. But I digress.
What really triggered today's entry was the common dragon power "Frightful Presence". In most cases this is basically a stun. The flavor isn't bad: the dragon scares you so bad a little trickle of urine empties in your boot. In practice though, its horrible for gameplay. How I wish I had seen that sooner.
When you start off with a new game or version of a game, its natural to trust the designers, at least at first. That is, I typically make an effort to at least play a game by the rules before deciding something sucks, or taking it into my own direction. I realize I was wrong about that now. I should have known that the stunned condition sucked at first glance, but at least now I am learning.
The stunned condition has long been the bane of 4e DMs. Solos being stunned is the subject of many a blog post from many a blogger. Even elites being stunned has always been a bridge too far in my book. That's why on my blog and zine you see rules about elites and solos always being immune to the effect. So what if the fluff can be sloppy? It simply breaks the game for the most powerful creatures to have to sit out the fight.
And here is where I must apologize. I recalled an epic tier game I once ran, still learning the system, in which I allowed a demon to stun one of the party. The poor bastard had to wait like 20 minutes to even do anything. I could feel his seething as he took his next turn. It was my bad.
Here's the deal. In classic editions, spells like Hold Person, Sleep, and the like are familiar and expected. Magic behaves differently. In 4e, magic is usually balanced against the other classes. Some love this, some hate this. I personally look at 4e as one of many different flavors of D&D ice cream. I don't make fun of others and berate them for liking rum raisin. But I digress again.
Being stunned in 4e sucks for everyone. Its also a condition that inherently slows down combat, adding to another of 4e's woes. "Why then", I asked myself, "did I ever allow stuns in the first place?"
That's the solution. Stuns don't exist. Not any more. Not for PCs, not for monsters.
You could just announce well before your game or campaign starts they don't exist, or if you want to delve deeper, come up with an alternate condition to substitute. After all, some paragon paths or epic destinies could incorporate the stunned condition as a partial element, or a player could love most elements of a single power only to have it completely nerfed by taking the condition out. I personally think dazed + immobilized is a solid substitute, but I am certainly open to ideas. One thing I am sure of, the standard 4e stun will never appear in my 4e games again. It just sucks too bad.
Heartfelt apologies to all I have stunned out there.
I agree whole-heartedly, man.
ReplyDeleteI stunned so many people and didn't think twice about it. I saw the light, in all places, with a video game. Being taken out of the game and having nothing to do about it, as a player, is such a jarring experience, that it can ruin the game.
If your character dies you can make a new character. You still have your agency as a player.
If you are stunned, you have to sit and watch and maybe, if you are lucky, it is "save ends" and you can roll a d20.
Stunning is just a bad and no-fun condition on both sides of the ol' proverbial screen and it can wreck combats for everyone.
I think one can keep stuns in the game if they are treated as a temporary condition... Either they go away after 1 round, or can be "bought off" with Bennies or some other similar house rule... I think there is a place for fear effects, but yes, it can be a suck fest if you are sitting in the game with nothing to do but run away (or stand in terror).
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've ever seen a 4e stun that wasn't either "save ends" or "until the start/end of next turn."
ReplyDeleteWhat about unconscious? We destroyed the Spiderkiller lair assault with a level 1 sleep, coupled with a few bonus items that nerfed the enemy's saving throws. In 2 rounds, the big boss was down and done, and we were on mop-up duty (this was, however, after fighting a really good fight just to get to her, of course).
The DM from that game still sputters when you mention the sleep spell...
Some later 4e powers fixed the problem with Sleep effects by ending the effect immediately if the target was attacked. I would've liked to see the Wizard daily patched the same way, but c'est la vie.
Delete--Dither
The problem isn't so much the "save ends" or the 1 turn, it's usually that the creature can use the stun effect again and again, essentially making it a "suck it, pal" repeating power.
ReplyDeleteI think the biggest problem with stun effects is with those that are Either Longlasting, reusable or multi-target. Taking a PC out for multiple turns or 4 of 6 PCs for a round is VERY BAD! However a single use, single target Stun for one round is okay, at least for a higher level Monster or a Major Boss, occasionally. And that is the Key word, occasionally, NOT every other Fight! Basically, this is a status that should happen very rarely, at most.
ReplyDeleteGF
Actually, I tend to find multitarget stuns, so long as they aren't re-usable or long lasting, are typically less frustrating for players than single target stuns. Depending on the number of PCs and monsters, and how on-the-ball the DM and other players are, a single character stunned for even one round can find themselves waiting half an hour or more before they get to participate in the game again. But if the whole party is stunned for a round, then they only have to wait for the DM to run through the monsters one more time before they get to act (and if area stuns are happening, there's probably elites or solos around, so fewer monsters to begin with), they don't also have to wait for all the other players.
DeleteAgree with Roderick - stunning everyone, or nearly everyone, for 1 round, is fine. Stunning one guy for several rounds, or repeatedly, is not ok.
DeleteMy experience with 4e stun is SO horrific, if I'm playing in a vanilla 4e game, the very first feat I take is "Superior Will," for its effect of allowing a save against stun (and daze) at the start of your turn -- even if the effect normally doesn't allow for a save. The very second feat I take is "Focused Will," which grants you a +4 bonus to saves against the dazed and stunned conditions.
ReplyDeleteIf I'm playing Human, I get both feats at 1st level.
Now in my own designs, I've done two things: eliminated the stunned condition as you've done here, and I break the dazed condition down into its component parts -- one effect grants CA, one effect restricts your on-turn actions, and a third effect prevents you from taking off-turn actions (both Imm and Opp).
--Dither
If starting in paragon, play a cha-primary tiefling (or revenant tiefling). Dispater's Iron discipline grants +cha mod to saves against daze, dominate, and stun, which by paragon levels should come out a point or two ahead of focused will, while also offering protection against dominate. By epic levels, between DID and SW, you should be ending daze and stun effects at the start of your turn automatically.
DeleteI tend to agree about stun in general, but Frightful Presence IME works fine in dragon solo battles - it typically stuns *everyone* for one round, which just gives the dragon another round's worth of action, at the cost of that standard action. It's nasty, but it doesn't slow the game down.
ReplyDeleteI've found the easiest way to deal with the Stunned condition is to change its definition. This eliminates the need to rewrite entire monsters or render entire powers useless while still getting rid of the problematic effect (no actions at all for a turn or more).
ReplyDeleteI've gotten decent results by changing the definition of 'stunned' to 'the target is dazed, slowed and weakened'. This definitely hinders the target's abilities and buys the user's side some breathing room while not completely neutering the target.